crying = blackmail?

[anotheranon]

Last night I got an email - one of those things that circulates between friends, like it does. The title: "Guys Rules". Most of this was a list of stereotypes about men that while unflattering (and, often grossly inaccurate) are largely inoffensive (guys never ask for directions, can't remember anniversaries, football Sunday is inevitable). But one jumped out at me: "Crying is blackmail."

I know the idea is out there outside of this email - one of my prior supervisors was vocal that he viewed women's tears as manipulation(!) My friend didn't send me the email to deliberately offend me, but that one just stuck in my craw not only because it is so outrageously dismissive, but because IMHO it's absolutely not true!

I'd rather have teeth pulled that cry. I'd rather have them pulled along with my toenails than cry in front of another person. I learned early on that little girls who cry get a lot MORE shit at school, so I trained myself out of it, to a large degree. I trained myself so well that I often can't cry when I KNOW it would be a much needed release.

In other words, if ever you see me cry, it's because I absolutely, positively CANNOT stop myself, and if I was ever accused of crying to manipulate someone I'd be livid.

Of course, that's my own experience, so I have to ask: can women - ANY woman - really "turn on the waterworks" at will, for whatever reason? I don't mean covering their face with their hands and "faking" it, I mean genuine, rolling tears that keep on coming.

Also, am I the only one whose ever heard anyone say "crying is blackmail" or similar "in the wild" so to speak? If so, what was the context? Where/how did this myth get circulation in the first place?

Just to muddy the waters further, I'm willing to consider that the ability/need to cry might be hormonally based; last week I was reading a blog entry by a female-to-male (FTM) transexual who was talking about the difficulties of crying after transition (I'll post a link if I can find it. As of posting, I've searched for half an hour for the post with no luck). I'm very resistant to the idea that gender/hormones govern everything we do so tightly and absolutely, but I'm putting it out there for discussion.

And though I know I'll be irritated if I get a "yes" to this - does anyone reading believe that women can cry at will?

And yes, I'm aware that the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data" - I'm just curious.

Comments

[kat1392.livejournal.com]

I do know a couple of women who can turn on the faucets at the drop of a hat. And they use it to get just damn near everything they want. Another fine example of the actions of the 10% percent getting attached to the 90%. I'm with you, though. If I'm crying, it is because I need to, although I have been known to cry at movies, etc.

The hormone thing is also true for some people. People with chemical imbalance are also susceptible to sudden crying.

Don't mean to irritate! :):):)

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

Are you SURE they weren't faking? I just find it difficult to imagine forcing a physiological response when the emotions to trigger it just aren't there.

If there ARE women who can cry at will, I wish they'd fscking stop if they're using it to manipulate. That 10% gives people license to disregard the genuinely felt emotions of the other 90% who don't cry until they're at the end of their rope >:(

And yeah, I know you didn't mean to irritate :)

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

There are both women AND men who can cry at will. Some are actors ... for them it's a talent that can be used to enhance a performance. And some, sadly, use this ability for manipulation. I've never come across a crier (that I know of) in RL, but I have known women who drop into a little girl voice to try to wheedle people into things. Just as bad as the crying thing, IMHO, and absolutely sets my teeth on edge when it's tried on me.

However the place I've most often seen the crying routine (and the little girl one) is television and movies, which excel in perpetuating behavioural myths about both women AND men (and which are imitated by those with no personality of their own). Makes one speculate that a thorough culling of mediocre Hollywood writers might advance our species' emotional evolution by several millennia. :p

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I'm willing to accept that actors can train themselves to cry by thinking of something that really made them cry in the past (see Semmie's comment downthread) - it's something they're required to do for a role, so I imagine they practice triggering themselves. That's all right - after all, it's called acting for a reason.

I don't think I've ever come across a crier - while sometimes I question whether someone should be upset enough to cry about something, I don't question that they ARE upset enough to cry.

And yeah - I've run into the "little girl" voice, but curiously, it was during my time in sales. I had a manager who would talk in this high pitched tone with a customer (it was the junior's department - maybe it was to sound more like a teenager?) and would drop about 2 octaves in the stock room :P

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

LOL!!!!! Your manager story made me think of Mr. Humphries (played by John Inman), in "Are You Being Served?" ... normally talked in a rather light voice, but would drop down several octaves when answering the department telephone. XD

My "little girl voice" experiences have been a tad different from yours; what I got was a female co-worker talking to me in a normal voice and then, when I didn't immediately drop what I was doing to do whatever they wanted, or act thrilled over whatever they were telling me, I'd get the same thing in the "little girl voice." Repeatedly. For some reason, possibly brain damage, the people who do this have trouble grasping the idea that individuals exist who don't respond well to middle-aged women trying to sound/act as if they're three years old (an insult to three-year-olds, I realize; most of them are better behaved). One of 'em also fished for compliments in "little girl" mode ... if she had a new haircut/item of clothing and didn't feel she was getting enough attention/compliments, she'd appear at people's desks and ask "Don't you love my new *****?" in the voice. Since I loathe compliment-fishing even in normal voice, you can imagine how well this went over with me. :p

[timcharmorbien.livejournal.com]

I've heard stories of women doing this, but in each case it was an individual noted as being very manipulative. I've never actually SEEN this behaviour in RL, just (as JLS noted) in movies and television. I think it's one of those unfair generalizations not only about women but about men's supposed inability to deal with emotional displays. Certainly a lot of men my age were told as children that "big boys don't cry", let alone "real" men. I suppose anyone unable to handle emotional display might feel that people who DO display their emotions are trying to manipulate them, when in fact they could just be crying - - it happens.
I suppose the only reason you don't hear about manipulative men "turning on the waterworks" is because it would tend to have the opposite effect - - some men really do consider such displays a sign of weakness, an unfortunate side effect of our John Wayne culture - - so there would be no point.

[tommdroid.livejournal.com]

I've had a male project team minion crying in my phone, claiming I could not ask him to do his job because it was too technical...but he still wanted his salary bonus for doing it. And he was really upset when I did not give up/in and let him have it his way.

Needless to say, I got quite baffled and is still today quite proud I did remain calm and did not fall for it.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I suppose anyone unable to handle emotional display might feel that people who DO display their emotions are trying to manipulate them, when in fact they could just be crying - - it happens.

It seems that there are two interpretations of crying emerging in the comments: 1) it's manipulation or 2) it's a sign of mental/emotional weakness. I admit I sometimes get irritated at "tears in inappropriate places" (like work) because of my own reticence - I can keep it together 'til I get home, why can't they? It's a failing on my part - I need to remember that crying is ok, sometimes unavoidable, and often very cleansing.

[tommdroid.livejournal.com]

I've heard some can cry at will, but I have never seen it myself. I rather have my brain pulled out my ears before I cry before another person, closest fmaily not counted. I hate to think my boys would grow up learning crying is a no-no. I've heard about the blackmail theory, and I regard it as a last resort when being such a bastard that someone else is hurt enough to cry. What else is there to say at such a point?

"boys don't cry" and such silliness

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I hope your sons do learn that it's ok to cry. Much as I hate to do it myself, I do recognize that sometimes you've just GOT to, that it's a healthy form of release. Healthier than breaking dishes or other destructive means, certainly!

[dustdaughter.livejournal.com]

My mother told me I was weak when I cried, so I don't do it that often. If you see me it's because I'm feeling a 'killing rage' but don't want to kill. When I'm feeling really low and sad (last week for instance), I can't cry.

I think that anyone who views tears as blackmail must be from that school of thought that teaches men to logic-based working machines or soldiers. Don't think, don't feel, don't consider anyone's needs - just complete the task.

I'm not making sense. I'm gonna go grab a few winks and get back to this.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

No, you ARE making sense. That sucks royally that your mom gave you such a hard time about crying :( Especially when you're a kid, you can't help it.

You're not the only one that cries in anger - I do the same thing, and it pisses me off royally because I think that it will be read as sadness when it's VERY much not!

I confess...

[semmie17.livejournal.com]

... I can cry at will.

I think of my dead grandmother or my dead Scooter (my dog) or whatever's naturally reduced me to tears in the past, and I can feel the remnants of the physiological response that came with the psychological distress. If I focus on that "memory" of the response, the tears will come like waterworks.

Now, I have to clarify something -- anyone who has really seen me cry will know that I'm faking it if I do the "waterworks" version. When I really cry I sound raw and jagged and slightly hysterical. It's an unpleasant moment for me and for most people around me, because I've lost any pretense at personal control.

I experience a different type of crying at, say, sad songs that have old memories (The song Yentil sings to her dead father Father can you see me? does it every time) or movies that push the "tears button". I still get misty at the ending of Breakfast at Tiffanys and Moonstruck and I cried at the end of Finding Neverland. But these are different kinds of tears, more of sympathy and catharsis than any internal angst.

It's the memories of those events -- the cellular memory, if that's possible -- that I use to turn on the waterworks. I rarely use it, though, but I had to do it for the run of "Othello" at MSU when I was playing "Emilia." After the first couple of rehearsals, I could get tears to pour down my cheeks like Niagra. :p (It was hell on my makeup, though.)

Re: I confess...

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

Like I said - I can accept that people can learn to trigger themselves to cry, particularly when acting when it might be required. And that's cool. It's the idea that someone might cry at will to get their way that irks me - not just because it's insincere, but because it fuels this "crying as blackmail" meme that causes any and all tears to be written off as not being caused by real distress.

Not that I think you'd fake crying to get your way in some trivial dispute - somehow I think you're of the school that would rather get your teeth pulled than break down in front of someone else :)

Re: I confess...

[semmie17.livejournal.com]

There's an age range to this, too. A 40-year old woman crying at a business meeting to "get her way" will only get herself fired. Most teachers are immune to tears after a few years of teaching. So where is this so-called crying taking place? At home.

Some men might have to be "cried at", if we look at the situation from the other side. Some men are so completely obtuse and selfish that the only way to get through to them that a woman's feelings matter, is through waterworks. It's an emotional wakeup tool, used for attention and, if timed correctly, embarrassment of the male.

There are two ways in which we choose NOT to use tools: first, if the tool does not work; and second, if we don't need the tool. If crying doesn't work, then a woman won't use it. But, too, if a man is sensitive enough to a woman's desires, then there's no need to use the crying-as-weapon, right? *ponders idea*

Re: I confess...

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

Some men might have to be "cried at", if we look at the situation from the other side. Some men are so completely obtuse and selfish that the only way to get through to them that a woman's feelings matter, is through waterworks.

See, I don't get that. If a guy is so blind that he won't acknowledge freely stated feelings unless they're accompanied by tears, my inclination would be "well, fuck 'em then,", as I refuse to go through the motions of crying when I'm not upset enough to cry, just to get through to them. Such a person isn't worth the effort, IMHO.

You talk about being in situations where one might need to use the tool of crying, but my solution is to just not be in that situation.

Re: I confess...

[semmie17.livejournal.com]

But... you're (presumably) married to an enlightened 21st century male living in an urban city area, and who is not threatened by intelligent, educated, aggressive women.

Most males are the opposite -- rural, highly threatened by women's intelligence, education, or any shows of aggression. Women who have to live with these males (for lack of their own opportunities or education or social background) have to deal with them the best they can. Not every woman is going to be enlightened enough to have a feminist solution "I choose not to be in that situation." Because of my marriage, I was trapped in an unhealthy situation for a long time, and many women are in that same place. How do they survive? They use everything at their disposal, including feminine tricks, manipulation, mothering, and tears.

Feminism is not widespread, nor is it even across all classes and regions. It exists mostly among upper middle-class and upper class educated elite, but for the rest of the planet -- it's a man's world.

Re: I confess...

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I quite agree that if you're in a situation where manipulation is your only tool, that you're going to rely on it heavily. I do need to be reminded occasionally that not every woman, everywhere is free to get up and go if their husband/boyfriend is a pig :P

It is sad you had to resort to manipulation for so much of your marriage. It's good you got out :)

Re: I confess...

[semmie17.livejournal.com]

And that's what I found to be the most telling about the "guy's rules" that Katie sent out -- it reflected a true approach to men who are in that rural, male-domination environment. In that environment, men do what they want, and women have to cope because there isn't family, educational, or social structures that will allow them to progress. The thing that gets me is -- these women don't even know that their husband/boyfriends are PIGS! They think the men are perfectly normal, and so they cope with the effects of this presumption.

Guys like Mikey, Tim, and your hubby are mutants in the good X-men HomoSuperior sort of meaning. They deserve lots of kisses. :))))

[zen4me.livejournal.com]

i've never met anyone that can cry at will and it kind of baffles me as to why one would want to do that, outside of giving a performance. it bothers me to think that there are women out there that would use that as a way to get what they want. it bothers me as much as women that use sex appeal to get what they want as well.

i absolutely hate to cry in front of anyone, but find that the water-works turn on quite readily when i'm dealing with very strong emotions (anger, frustration) for whatever reason and also when i read/watch anything that has to do with personal loss. it hits so close to home that i always cry in empathy and rememberance.

This is D.

[(Anonymous)]

I am fairly sure that I don't qualify as a woman. But, I just attempted to will myself to cry. I focused on feeling sadness, on the experience of helplessness, hopelessness. I felt a sinking sensation in my gut, a kind of black pall fell over my emotions, my face slackened, an odd electric sensation ran along the inside of my nose and my eyes immediately started to moisten.

So yes, I think you can say people can cry at will.