tortoises and hares

[anotheranon]

Ever since I started exercising (semi) regularly, I've bitched about how crap my endurance is (one example). As I kept going on I started wondering whether some people aren't just inherently suited for one type of exercise or another - long, marathon-type activities or short, sprinting activities - myself being mostly suited for the latter, because I seem to burn out fast and modern fencing is, after all, largely short sprints while holding a weapon....

Conversations about this have revealed to me the existence of slow- and fast-twitch muscle fibers. D. says he first learned of this in junior high and I'm sure almost everyone else who has ever pursued a sport seriously has heard of this, but it was news to me! A hideous oversimplification of what's at the link: skeletal muscles all have some combination of slow twitch (slow/high endurance) and fast twitch (fast/low endurance) muscle fibers. Most people have more of one type than the other (I'm not even getting into medium-fast twitch muscles - look at the chart at the link).

There seems to be some confusion over whether one fiber type can be changed to another with training, or just how much influence the fiber combination has on actual performance, but it seems the only conclusive test of what proportion of fast/slow you have is a muscle biopsy.

Seeing as I'm not curious enough about this to get a needle rammed into my leg, I'm going to guess based on past experience that I'm mostly fast-twitch - my limit for fencing (both small, fast foil and heavy, precise rapier) tends to be about 2 hours before my technique goes to hell and there's little point in continuing. Hell, even standing hurts after only a couple of hours :(

So what to do? The first link seems to suggest that trying to be a "tortoise" when you're built like a "hare" won't work well and will likely ruin your hare-like strengths: in other words, I could work on my endurance only at the expense of speed/power, and would never build really good endurance anyway. On the other hand, the connection between muscle fiber type and performance isn't completely clear and it would be nice to be able fence without wiping out so fast.

No conclusions as yet, but I've found reading up on this to be fascinating.

Comments

[skill-grl.livejournal.com]

2 hours is pretty much endurance.

When they speak about fact twitch, my understanding is that they're talking about whether your muscles can react quickly and turn over quickly. Sprint v. miles (even @ 4 minute miles) is the difference between fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles.

If you're having trouble after 90 minutes, then perhaps some work w/ sports nutrition could help you. Few people can exercise for longer than 90 minutes w/o replacing calories. And, certainly one needs to replace electrolites.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

2 hours is pretty much endurance.

I should better explain what goes on in those two hours:

Rapier: drills with ~2 lb weapon, 5 minute breaks every 1/2 hour or so, for 1 1/2-2 hours. I'll sometimes do a few bouts if I have energy left over.

Foil: usually bouting to five points with much smaller weapon. Constant breaks to cycle in/out with stopped action whenever one fencer scores a point. A bout to five points lasts only about 5-6 minutes, with a lot of interruptions for scoring (hence the "sprinting" description above).

In other words, I feel justified in being tired out after rapier, but like an utter lightweight with foil!

[skill-grl.livejournal.com]

I'd still guess you would get a lot of benefit from careful nutrition during practices. Esp. since you don't carry a huge amount of body fat. The other thing is that endurance doesn't just come. Training manuals for running almost always have people start by alternating running and walking--and slowly grow the running segments--to increase endurance.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I AM going to try and do more footwork - the distance drill last week really kicked my ass because it was nearly constant motion. It's also something I can practice on my own, so I can do it more than once a week.

[semmie17.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad you wrote this, A., because what with all your talk about fencing and the types of exercise your excell at, I've always mused quietly to myself that you and I are exactly the opposite. I'm slow-twitch fiber-bodied. I can do marathons of a slow jog for hours, but can only sprint for a few minutes -- and I can go for hours on my feet, as in fact I often must do exactly that, in order to teach.

I think that our athletic scholars need to revise the term "endurance." If forced to move quickly, I too burn out quickly. But when let on my own to keep a constant pace, I can go for hours. So what is endurance? To be able to do the 100-yard dash, or the 5-mile hike, without major discomfort? I wish I knew.

[zen4me.livejournal.com]

Endurance: (n) the ability to sustain a prolonged stressful effort or activity.

Endurance has nothing to do with a sprint. In the 100 yard dash, it is all about speed. Endurance means being able to attain and maintain a constant speed over a great distance. For example, running a marathon, cycling a century or completely a triathalon. It doesn't matter if you have more "fast-twitch" or "slow-twitch" muscle fibers, it is all down to the type of training you do for the activity.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

That's what a couple of the other links suggest, that training matters more than fiber type. I can see it, but from my own experience it makes sense that an individual's personal muscle makeup will affect what activities - sprint or marathon - they'll have an affinity for.

There's also the value of taking breaks and not burning up everything all at once - I learned this when I used to go out raving in college.

[zen4me.livejournal.com]

I don't think a person's 'personal muscle make-up' has any bearing on what activities they have an affinity for. I'd say at the least 95% of a person's affinity for an activity is divided between desire and training. The other 5% is a combination of all the little things that seperate an elite athlete from the rest of us.

It doesn't matter how your built if you don't have the desire for a particular activity or do the necessary training to get better and stay in top shape.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

Note - I never claimed to be an expert on this! And I'm only speaking from my own experience: untrained and all other things being equal, I seem to be better at sprinty type things than marathon type things.

That's not to say that I COULDN'T be better at activities that require more endurance - indeed, I'm hoping I can! But I seem to be better at the quick jolt than the slow burn "out of the box", so to speak.

[zen4me.livejournal.com]

I know you aren't claiming to be an expert, nor am I. I just want to get the proper information out there based on both experience and what I've learned over many years of sports and training. With the proper training and motivation, you could very easily excel at endurance activities. That is why you are better at "quick jolt" than "slow burn" the body needs to be trained on how to function consistently on "slow burn" where as it doesn't need much training for "quick jolt".

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

You may be no expert, but you've done serious exercise longer than I have! You do make an excellent point - endurance is, by it's very definition, something that likely isn't going to come naturally.

Still, it's interesting to consider the possibility that everyone has to start somehwere, and there might be a physical influence on where different people start.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I'm glad this is of help :) It was just a revelation to me to see some physical reason for WHY I might not be able to keep up the way I want to!

Having said this, the jury still seems to be out re: whether one can train successfully for whichever exercises that don't come naturally or not, so I encourage you to do your own research and decide whether your speed might be something you want to work on. I imagine if your favored exercise is jogging, you may not want to though!

[semmie17.livejournal.com]

Well, since I mostly exercise to lose weight or lower stress, I've found that jogging and using the machines at the Y do the trick for me. You'd be surprised, though, at how in-shape Gigi is! That bicycling really has both her and Mike's cardio in tip-top shape. :)

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't surprise me at all - the cycling they do, talk about serious endurance!

I can imagine that for stress relief, sustained activity probably is better - more endorphins plus longer periods of higher heart rate :)

[zen4me.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I'm just muddled and reading this wrong or what, but "fast-twitch" muscles are the ones that activate first to get you started in a movement. For instance, when returning a serve in tennis, the fast-twitch muscles fibers auto respond to pull the racket back, but they don't have the endurance capacity to complete the entire backswing and follow-thru. That is where the "slow-twitch" muscle fibers come in.

What do you do for fuel during your fencing bouts? At 2 hours, if you haven't put some calories back into your body you're really asking for trouble.

Interesting info :)

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

What do you do for fuel during your fencing bouts?

I usually eat a moderate dinner beforehand - too much and I feel weighted down. Usually meat and vegetable with little processed starch - pasta feels too heavy so I avoid it fencing night.

For water, I usually go to the water fountain a couple of times in the evening, but I don't measure it. Too much and I'll have to use the bathroom, which I try to avoid because it's inconvenient to have to take off the 2-3 layers of uniform :P

[zen4me.livejournal.com]

I usually eat a moderate dinner beforehand - too much and I feel weighted down. Usually meat and vegetable with little processed starch - pasta feels too heavy so I avoid it fencing night.

It's smart not to eat too much prior to working out, as you can make yourself sick, but you should try to eat some complex carbs (such as whole wheat pasta, long grain rice, etc.) as they take longer to break down giving your body a longer lasting fuel source.

For water, I usually go to the water fountain a couple of times in the evening, but I don't measure it. Too much and I'll have to use the bathroom, which I try to avoid because it's inconvenient to have to take off the 2-3 layers of uniform :P

How much does the uniform weigh and how much do you sweat during fencing? You'd be surprised at how little you will have to pee if you are really working up a sweat. And a possible side effect of not getting enough water in (daily not just during the workouts) is kidney malfunction, which could show up as back pain. Your best bet would be to carry a liter bottle and try to finish it at least twice during your workouts. Besides keeping your body hydrated, it helps to flush lactic acid from the muscles and helps fight cramping.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

How much does the uniform weigh and how much do you sweat during fencing?

Based on the bathroom scale, the upper body protectio + mask comes out to roughly 6-7 lbs; something more than that if you're counting the foil and the breeches.

As to how much I sweat - "a lot". I don't sweat much but I easily come home soaked every time I go out.

[zen4me.livejournal.com]

Based on your rough guesstimate, you're probably wearing at least 10lbs of equipment it sounds like. You totally need to get in more water than you are if you're wearing 10+lbs of equipment for two hours and leaving drenched.

Do others drink a minimal amount of water? I hope not, it seems almost negligent of the instructors not to be more explicit (especially with n00b's) about just how important proper hydration is. Please, please, please at the least speak with your doctor or a sports nutritionist about what you should be taking in ideally during these workouts. You should also think about packing some Gu or similar brand of energy gel to give yourself some calories, salt, and carbs to have during the workout. They are easy on the stomach and shouldn't give you much trouble - though some of the flavours are kinda gross.

[skill-grl.livejournal.com]

Another thing that can drain people of energy is dehydration. Are you drinking at least 1/2 cup of water every 15 minutes during your workout?

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

See the comment directly above this one - I do drink water, but I not in measured amounts/at measured intervals.

[nminusone.livejournal.com]

I prefer to ignore fiber types and imagine a continuum from fastest to slowest twitch, from anerobic to endurance. If you've exercised enough you probably know what you're good at (I'm an anerobic type), but whatever you were born with can be trained in one direction or another, within some limits. At club level I wouldn't worry about genetics and fiber type, but at an elite level, yeah, if you have the wrong genetics you're probably wasting your time.

I've mentioned the principle of training specificity before. Your training should look somewhat like your performance. Marathoners run more, shot putters lift more weights and so forth. There is some crossover but training can enhance your power, your peak strength or your endurance depending on how you train.

There are supplements for each type of performance. Creatine is the basic one for anaerobic output, carnitine for aerobic output. I'll try to cover those and others in depth soon.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

If you've exercised enough you probably know what you're good at (I'm an anerobic type), but whatever you were born with can be trained in one direction or another, within some limits.

That's what I was trying to get at - without any training at all, I always favored what you're calling anaerobic. I'm willing to train for more endurance, but won't be heartbroken if I can't run 20 mile marathons because it's not what I'm trying to do :P

Re: supplements: I'd like to know more, but am more concerned with a better choice of foods/liquids before I get on the strip. I'm thinking that both zen4me and skill_grl are onto something when they mention I might need more water - as both of them do long-distance bicycling and have worked out seriously much longer than myself, I'm inclined to take their opinions seriously.