beauty is in the eye of the pocketbook

[anotheranon]

Pandagon's expansion on a post at Alley Rat about the sad state of men who so media-saturated that they can't find normal women attractive got me thinking about how much of human desire is our own, and how much is just overexposure to Photoshopped models. I know what constant visions of rail-thin women to do other women - makes us feel bad enough about how we look that we will shell out for the latest makeup/snake oil/gym membership to firm up/shave off/cover up where we think we're lacking or have too much. Even though I've seen models in person and know, definitely, that even they don't look like their photos, I have to admit it still sometimes gets to me that my skin isn't perfect or that my tummy isn't perfectly flat.

But I never considered the guy's perspective - there are some guys getting really bothered by the fact that they can't get turned on by normal sized/shaped women because all they've ever seen are models and actresses, and heavily Photoshopped ones at that. If the comments on these two posts are any indication, those who do fancy someone other than the advertising standards of young and thin are mocked by their male peers or considered fetishists for liking a woman of perfectly normal proportions.

I also have to wonder if this isn't affecting women too - after all, billboards aren't chock full of balding guys with beer guts. And much as Hugh Jackman's arms are a joy to behold, I DO know that there is an infinite variety of male beauty out there. At least, I hope I do.

IMHO this is a downright freakish state of affairs! I know that some of us have overcome Hollywood/Madison Avenue well enough to develop our own tastes; did we all stop watching tv? Personally I think it's helpful to see lots of ordinary people naked to get a more realistic idea of, well, reality, but somehow I don't think that most people will really go for nationally encouraged nudity :P

Yes, this is an incoherent rambling post, and the links above discuss the issues of media, body image, and selling stuff far better than I can here. Read & discuss amongst yourselves....

Comments

[ragdoll.livejournal.com]

It's a really interesting and telling article. I've been saying that for years -- even when I was younger (in my late teens and twenties), I was considered "ugly" because I wasn't a size two or blonde. I wish I was joking, I'm not. My breasts were either too big (when the standard was more flat chested tall blonde types like Jerry Hall or Cheryl Tiegs) or the only thing good about me (when it was busty tall blondes in vogue). I've known I was too old for men my age for at least 10 years -- most men in their 30s and 40s only wanted 20 year olds.

My ex was odd because he liked curvy women - so natural he was considered a chubby chaser. I felt uncomfortable with it because he seemed like me at 100 lbs overweight more than 30-40. I've often been told that I would've been considered beautiful in the Victorian/Edwardian era esp. cos I have an hour glass figure esp. when corseted but I'll never have really thin thighs or calves etc.

It's really sad the the current trend for beauty in the media is stick anorexic thin with silicon boobs stuck on. *shudders*

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I also find it interesting that at least a few guys are standing up and pointing out just how weird the current state of feminine beauty requirements are, and how much of it is enforced by some guys' need to impress other guys. Read the comments - very telling.

[ragdoll.livejournal.com]

Will do-- I thought it was good that some of the guys were talking about how f'ed up it is and that they wanted to get turned on by "real women" but couldn't.

The saddest thing is some of my doll-boy friends work in the fashion industry. One of them is a big time make up artist who loves to make me feel good by telling me tales about the women he works with who are the biggest in the biz. If it wasn't for good makeup/hair people and photoshop, they wouldn't be considered much better looking than the rest of us. (And yes, it does make me feel good to know that Cindy Crawford has really bad hair in person)

[timcharmorbien.livejournal.com]

"I've known I was too old for men my age for at least 10 years -- most men in their 30s and 40s only wanted 20 year olds."

That's interesting, because I've found the opposite to be true for me; as I get older I tend to find women closer to my age to be more attractive than the early-20s; 30 and 40 year olds just have more going on for them than the younger women, IMHO. I'm a 42 year old man, what am I going to talk about with a 20 year old? Her Barbies? :p

[ragdoll.livejournal.com]

I'm the same age as you. Most of the men I've known (including my ex who left me for a 21 year old) only showed interest in girls in their 20s, saying I (and anyone else in my age bracket) was "too old". So it's very frustrating.

[tommdroid.livejournal.com]

I don't fully recognise this phenomena, though in large parts I surely do. I know a few who have younger girlfriends/wifes, but I also know a few women who have boyfriends/husbands who are significantly younger than temselves.

In discussions I sense there is a differance between fantasies/sex and love/sex. And the sexual charisma is known to be a mix of a beautiful body and a smashing personality. I have heard several men, younger and older, phraise a couple of Swedish actresses born in the 40s. When going out me and my lady friends are frequently asked to dance by younger men (and men our age but seldom older men...could it be the docs?) And I am chubby. Is this a Swedish thing?

But sure, I see your point, and the article was very"the thumb on the nail". Some people are hoplessly shallow...and I predict they will die alone.

Personally I have a thing for long, slim, sexy male legs (and androids!). I can't help it, my mind and my libido do not always get along through logic. Fortunately I have other turn-ons as well, lucky for me that is, I would detest being all that shallow. A big turn-off for me is all them Ken and Barbie like people, platic perfect and altered, only good for hanging clothes on.

Truly beautiful people on the other hand, I can never look enough on them. It is like looking at art but just like art it is clear they are fantasy, photoshop fantasy, makeup and hair fantasy. They are not for real sex, and if they stopped me from having real sex and real turn-ons I would see a shrink, a.s.a.p.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

When going out me and my lady friends are frequently asked to dance by younger men (and men our age but seldom older men...could it be the docs?) And I am chubby. Is this a Swedish thing?

No idea, as I've never been to Sweden and as such can't compare.

JLS has pointed out in the past that UK tv, at least, does have much more normal looking people in their tv shows than most US series. If Swedish tv is anything like British then perhaps everyone just isn't as hammered with glossy unreality as here. On American tv, most women are slim and beautiful, and old, stereotypically ugly male characters are often paired with women much younger - I'm guessing that if this gets presented as normal every day on the box people start to think it is, and completely forget that TV is fantasy :(

Personally I find the discussion fascinating and hopeful - more people are finally starting to realize that beauty isn't a tiny set of innate qualities but something we're taught.

I don't think I'm entirely immune, I think I'm just choosing different teachers - I don't watch much broadcast TV anymore and seldom read fashion magazines.

[nminusone.livejournal.com]

I hope this doesn't seem too angry. It's hard for me to write this in a happy happy tone of voice. For some reason.

> got me thinking about how much of human desire is our own, and how
> much is just overexposure to Photoshopped models.

The verb "eroticize" exists to describe an active process. If what's erotic was pre-programmed there would be no process, and no real need for that verb. The simple fact that advertising works makes the situation abundantly clear. The nasty part is that our subconscious can and will eroticize things all by itself, if we're negligent enough to let any random thing go in it. It's no different than neglecting what your dog eats while out for a walk, and having him get sick as a result.

> I also have to wonder if this isn't affecting women too - after all,
> billboards aren't chock full of balding guys with beer guts.

If women can see, and have any erotic response whatsoever based on appearance, then I can guarantee you that response can be programmed to some extent. If ducks can imprint ping pong balls, and giraffes can imprint jeeps, doesn't it seem likely there's some flexibility left in adult animals? The basis of all advertising, conditioned association, works as well in this area as any other.

A relevant quote comes to mind:

Hannibal Lecter: No, he covets. That's his nature. And how do we begin to covet, Clarice? Do we seek out things to covet? Make an effort to answer.

Clarice Starling: No. We just--

Hannibal Lecter: No. Precisely. We begin by coveting what we see every day. [...]

And if what we see every day is advertising... you do the math.

(Those who know me will understand my perverse delight in the fact that the words of one so insane are still so true.)

The process of eroticization is one we're each responsible for, whether we accept that responsibility, or ignore it and let it happen randomly. For this reason I have only partial sympathy for people whose standards of desire have been poisoned by unreal images. You control what your brain eats. Try to feed it something healthy, not whatever trash floats by. Even if you're exposed to trash all day long, it's still your choice whether to accept the value system it presents or reject it as the bullshit that it is.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I agree that we are responsible for what we expose ourselves to, but I suspect that by the time most people clue into just how insidious advertising is (if they ever do), it's too late. You've got to remember, this starts early for most people, unless their parents are really strict.

[nminusone.livejournal.com]

It may be that I'm just a freak... actually it's probably quite likely, but my feeling is that you only reach "too late" when you stop trying. I was 27 or 28 before I even became aware of these issues enough to *start* trying, but my age didn't stop me from making progress. I'm not saying it's easy, or that I have *no* sympathy for people in that boat, just that we all have to fight the battle to have a hope of winning.

[tommdroid.livejournal.com]

JLS has pointed out in the past that UK tv, at least, does have much more normal looking people in their tv shows than most US series. If Swedish tv is anything like British then perhaps everyone just isn't as hammered with glossy unreality as here. On American tv, most women are slim and beautiful, and old, stereotypically ugly male characters are often paired with women much younger - I'm guessing that if this gets presented as normal every day on the box people start to think it is, and completely forget that TV is fantasy :(

That makes perfect sense! The infamous normalization process! We make fun of US tv-shows, like Sunset Beach and The bold and the beautiful, how the actresses hairs are all the same, how Barbie/Ken like they are, and how none of the actors can make a facial expression due to what we assume is way too many botox injections.

Personally I find the discussion fascinating and hopeful - more people are finally starting to realize that beauty isn't a tiny set of innate qualities but something we're taught.

I learnt that in school, high school to be precise. We had what it's called "Bild" in Swedish, "Picture" if I translate it. We did not only learn the basics in drawing, painting and photography, but also how advertising pictures are made and how to analyse the advertising message. We got to analyse an episode of "Dallas" to see how Sue-Ellen always was placed in the right lower corner of the screen while JR always inhabited the upper left corner, and how the women all could tremble with their chin when arguing while the men kept stern. Oh boy! Our teacher claimed: "It is all about sex and domination, that is what life is all about." And I think she was right ;)

I don't think I'm entirely immune, I think I'm just choosing different teachers - I don't watch much broadcast TV anymore and seldom read fashion magazines.

I don't think anyone is immune. And your assumption about just choosing different teachers looks very accurate. We all have our mental back-pack of experiences. I got told that during the Victorian time in England, they had an experiment to show young boys/men dead female bodies, all in the name of science and studies, to make the female body less myserious for them, less tempting and sexy, and the result ended up with a bunch of boys/men going necrophilian.

airbrushing photos article in Glamour this month

[(Anonymous)]

In regards to this, thought you might be interested in checking out this month's Glamour (Jennifer Connelly cover) which has a brief but interesting article on airbrushing photos in the fashion biz, complete with before and afters. The actress who guested on Friends & then CSI (aisha tyler?? not sure) wrote it & it's a good commentary on how nothing we see nowadays in mags/papers/billboards is real in any sense of the word. A good eye-opener.
-Lyd.