(no subject)

[anotheranon]

The sight of religious extremists in my neck of the woods today reminded me that I meant to write a long-winded post on the subject of religion.

I'd initially thought of using this heretic quiz (hat tip idragosani) as a jumping off point, because any result I would have received would have been inappropriate/wrong - it's very hard to be a heretic when you don't have an organized belief system to commit a heresy against, but I still would have scored as something because most of us start somewhere.

I was raised Methodist - not fundamentalist or strict (I joke that the Methodist route to heaven is bringing a roast to the potluck), but my mom and dad considered it important enough to put me through "confirmation classes" at age 12 to become a full member of the church (Methodists baptize babies, so I had no choice about that - more ranting on this anon). During those classes I started questioning, but went ahead and confirmed because it was what my parents wanted. By around 15-16 I wasn't going to church anymore (in part, at least, because I didn't want to get up early on a weekend) after a short power struggle with my mom which had to do more with parental than divine authority. In short, leaving religion wasn't a huge deal for me because it wasn't drilled into me fiercely from an early age.

Interactions with fundie high school/college classmates put in the strict anti-religion camp for many years but after meeting more thoughtful moderates I'm more open minded than I used to be.

Understand: I'm at best what I call an "apathyist" - I don't know whether there's a god or gods, and I'm not too concerned about it. If there are all-powerful deity(ies), why would they care if I worship them or not (I don't subscribe to the belief common to many flavors of the "big three monotheisms" that God(TM) is going to get insecure and spank me if I don't kowtow appropriately)? If there is/are no god(s)... well, there you go. I've been called a "pagan that hasn't articulated yet" but I think it misses the point even if there is something greater than myself, I don't feel a need to worship it in order to save my soul/be a better person - I think good and bad comes from within. FWIW, I identified with a lot from Atheism: A Rough History of Disbelief - interesting viewing if you can find it.

Fundamentalists (of all religions) seem to get ironclad rules and direction from their beliefs. For people who aren't very introspective, I can see where that certainty would be very comforting. However, I despise fundamentalism because I think blind dogmatism denies personal responsibility and nuanced thinking - hell, ANY thinking! Historically these selfish, fearful beliefs are extremely bad news for societies in which they flourish (reference: Richard Dawkins' miniseries The Root of All Evil? for details. Also see: jihad, Dominionism, dispensationalism, Spanish Inquisition, Wars of Religion, etc.).

Unlike some, I have no beef with the moderate religious - I don't think they're uniformly stupid, deluded, or "sheep" - I do understand the human need for community, a sense of continuity, and ritual. And while I feel no animosity, I do fail to understand - why do they feel the need to fill these needs through congregations which emphasize faith in a deity or deities that might or might not exist instead of through something else? I don't know, neighborhood activities, social clubs based on common interests, family, friends?

I don't say that to be deliberately inflammatory. I acknowledge that most people tend to stay in the faith with which they were raised, so there's the appeal of family ties that might be difficult to express or acknowledge other ways. Also many towns have treated the local church as a social outlet for years (I actually think that the social aspects are what kept my mom going to her local church for so long - once the congregation got so big she didn't know anyone she stopped going). I guess my question is - is even moderate religious faith so frail that it needs constant reinforcement in a formal setting? It seems to me that only insecure fundies would mentally/emotionally need a weekly drill in what they're supposed to believe.

It might be excessively easy for me to say that because 1) I think that true faith is highly individual, so an individual can't develop their personal connection to god(s) from congregating with others 2) even if I did believe in something, I'm not the type to feel much of a need to congregate about it (though I am recognizing that I need emotional/moral support in other areas of my life).

Other extremely random ponderings on religion:

• I don't think it's fair to raise or baptize children into a faith. Confirming at 12 makes no sense if you want someone to conciously embrace a belief - by 12 most people are only barely able to think abstractly. I have heard the saying "Give me the child and you give me the man", and I think it bears thought here - it's hard to resist indoctrination when you're a kid. This leads me to an uncomfortable conclusion that indoctrinating children is less about offering the comforts of faith and more about control. And that's not real "freedom of religion".
  
• Fundamentalist - and by that I mean rigid, judgmental, dogmatic beliefs - are almost universally damaging, to the believers and to the people they try to impose them on.
  
• In a modern, pluralistic society there needs to be a wall of separation between the functions of church and the functions of state. Add a moat and barbed wire and it's even better. Mixing the two cheapens and weakens the mission of both.
  
• Morality does not hinge on religious faith. If you behave because you're afraid god(s) are going to throw lightning bolts, that's not real morality - that's fear. The right thing is right because the actor has thought about it and weighed the consequences of their actions.
  
• Religious people are not automatically good - exhibit A: Phelps' people and their ilk. This is why I do kinda like the Catholic meme of having to do good works to get into heaven - walk the walk.
  
• I don't think science can explain or enforce religion. I have an interest in Biblical archaeology, not because I think it will prove the Bible right, but because I think it will provide a useful historical context for the time and place in which it was written. Ultimately, I figure the truly faithful won't care even if Jesus is proved to have been entirely mythical, because that's not the point. Fundamentalist attempts to use science to bolster their faith ("intelligent design", anyone?) betray a severe insecurity of faith - if the believer is so confident that they're right, why do they need to prove it to everyone else?
  
  Likewise, proving Jesus did exist isn't going to inspire unbelievers to go back to the church in droves - lots of good, inspiring people lived in the past. What makes Jesus special and worthy of worship?
  

I'm sure I've pissed off a good many people with this post, but I meant no disrespect. I'm genuinely curious - why do the quietly, confidently faithful still go to church? And other stuff.

Keeping it public in hopes that it will stimulate conversation. If it gets all flamey I'll make it friends only 'cos I know my friends tend to be a civil lot :)

Comments

[wendyzski.livejournal.com]

If you behave because you're afraid god(s) are going to throw lightning bolts, that's not real morality - that's fear.

I use something of the same explanation to define what I see as the difference between ethics and morals. Morals are "good" and "evil", Ethics are "right" and "wrong". Morals are things that you are TOLD, whereas ethics are things you work out.

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

Likewise, proving Jesus did exist isn't going to inspire unbelievers to go back to the church in droves

***chuckles*** Very true ... I'm an atheist and I believe Jesus (or somebody very similar) existed. A man who had, for his time, a very radical and wonderful view of faith and ethics. I just don't happen to believe he was a deity or the offspring of a deity is all.

What you've said here is very interesting, although my comment is from the flipside ... I haven't a clue WHY I'm an atheist. I was raised in the Anglican Communion, in a place where the churches were as much a social institution as they were a religious one; all my memories, as far back as I can remember, are of a vague discomfort with the whole thing, followed by a sense of internal peace when I was able to articulate to myself that I didn't believe in it (I couldn't even tell you what age that was, although I was about nine years old when I said it out loud to my parents ... I didn't discover the word "atheist" until much later). And that's just the way it's been, ever since. ***shrug*** Probably I never got into the fundamentalist atheist thing ... I've just always assumed that most people who have actually made the effort to look inside themselves have found that peaceful place, and who am I to knock it if it involves belief in a deity?

Fundamentalist versions of religions DO bother (and frighten) me ... that's looking outward instead of inward, blindly following instead of thinking, hating others for being different instead of facing and examining one's own weakness in fearing that difference. :-(

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I haven't a clue WHY I'm an atheist.

If I could hazard a guess - based on what you wrote above, the faith you were raised in never resonated with you, and you felt no pressure to conform, so you left. No great mystery, from here!

And I think "fundamentalist atheism" manifests when an atheist is overly harassed by the religious about their atheism. In high school I went through a period of militant disbelief because of tedious Jesus freaks I shared classes with :P

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

the faith you were raised in never resonated with you, and you felt no pressure to conform

As good a reason as any. I just said it for clarification, since all the other atheists I've encountered/heard of came to their beliefs much later in life, and usually due to logic/reading/education/etc.


Sadly I've come across fundamentalist atheists who had no religious harassment to blame ... they WERE the initiating harassers against others. The type that gives all faiths a bad name. :-(