princesses and Peter Pan

[anotheranon]

Ran across this story about the negative effects of fairy tales on women's adult relationships at Redneck Feminist. While the redneck feminist makes good points re: little boys aren't raised to be princes the way (some) little girls are raised to be princesses, so getting them all hung up on Cinderella is going to leave them with some really self-destructive notions about men and romance, I guess my perspective is: why would any girl/woman want to be a princess in the first place?

Maybe it's something I just am not wired to "get". I've never been good at the whole princess thing; I was never "daddy's little girl" or similar and what preciousness my parents did try to foist on me I resented terrifically - I'm not a china doll, dammit!

Also, the article talks about girls loving fairy tales like "Rapunzel" or "Cinderella". Me, I was hooked on Peter Pan (Disney version) - and I always identified with Peter. Who the fsck would want to be Wendy, after all? She just whined and got rescued, Peter fought pirates and hung out with the Lost Boys and had fun. And that was always the big decider for me. If I learned anything from fairy tales it was: girls get to look pretty and get rescued. Boys get to actually do stuff.

This carried over into my other childhood pop cultural obsessions. Princess Leia gets rescued. Han Solo does stuff. Most of the music videos I loved growing up: women look pretty, guys (the band) do stuff. Even my beloved Monty Python - Carol Cleveland had her moments, but most of the time she was just a pretty foil for whatever the guys were doing - hell, they kept all the good female roles for themselves! :P

I don't think it ever occurred to me that this was sexist or old fashioned as a child - I simply didn't have that kind of in-depth awareness, and who does as a kid? But for some reason I put myself into the male character's shoes in my imaginatino rather than the internalizing the "I'm a girl so I must be a princess" meme. Maybe it helped that I simply wasn't good at "princessing" in real life, maybe I just didn't get anyone telling me that what I saw on tv was how things had to be. For whatever reason I've always seen myself as the white knight rather than the damsel in distress.

I'm sure - or at least, I hope - there are children's stories out there with female characters who do stuff. Not keeping up with pop culture the way I used to, I have no way of knowing. But I did think it was an interesting article, as I've run into a few "princessy" type girls in my life. Most were either unhappy or terrifically narcisstic - i.e., crashing bores.

Comments

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

I never got the princess thing either. But then, for my very first Halloween to dress up, I was a pirate. :-)

If you go back to original versions, there are a lot of fairy tales in which the girl does the rescuing or is the hero (e.g.: Grimm's "Clever Gretel", the Scandinavian "East of the Sun and West of the Moon", Andersen's "The Snow Queen") and quite a few with an all-female cast (Grimm's "Mother Hulda", a.k.a. "Mother Holly" is one that came to mind as I read your post).

Now that I'm thinking about it, I never did like "modern" versions of fairy tales when I was a kid (usually given as book gifts by relatives) ... my mother had copies of original Grimm and Andersen and those were what she read to us (blood'n'guts'n'gore!); she also had (still has) a book of early 20th century fairy tale-type stories called "The Kingdom of the Winding Road" and a collection of Scandinavian tales titled "East of the Sun and West of the Moon". And I now possess my grandfather's copy of Sheila Braine's "The Princess of Hearts" (first published in 1906), which also has a princess as heroine (and makes a few snarky remarks about royalty valuing princes over princesses ***GRIN***). My favourite story in my copy of Seamus McManus' (one of Ireland's great traditional storytellers) "Hibernian Nights" is "The Mad Man, the Dead Man, and the Devil", in which, despite the title, the women definitely come out on top (as they do in many other traditional Irish tales). There's also a few female-on-top plots in my collection of Chinese fairy tales.

Definitely go digging up the old stuff; you'll be pleasantly surprised. Or, if you want something you can sing along with instead, seek out the video/DVD of Stephen Sondheim's Into the Woods, where Cinderella finds that marrying a prince is overrated and Red Riding Hood carries a knife and has her cape lined with wolfskin. :D

P.S. Hmmmm, you've just inspired me to upload my favourite tune from the Sondheim to my LJ for a few days ... there's no doubt about the symbolism of HIS version of the Big Bad Wolf ... LOL!!!!

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I've never read any of the "unedited" versions of fairy tales. I know they're out there, just never got to them. Maybe I should. I wonder how it came to be that most of the fairy tales adapted by Disney etc. paint the women as these pink frilly freaks? Picking and choosing, or desperate editing of the originals?

I've seen part of "Into the Woods", but not entirely and not lately. I'll check out your mp3 later :)

[tommdroid.livejournal.com]

I've got an complete unedited collection of HC Andersen. I started to read them to my kids but they were too bloody. I read them myself as I kid though, and inhereted them after my Grandmother. Perhaps that explains a thing or two ;))

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

I highly recommend that you pick up a copy of original fairy tales on your next library visit ... you'll be pleasantly surprised. :-)

Somewhere between the two World Wars, some twit came up with the idea that the violence (and there is a LOT of violence) in fairy tales wasn't suitable for children, and the tales started being rewritten (it's possible that this WAS a reaction to the horrors of WWI). I've got a Stephen Leacock piece called "Softening the Stories for the Children", which was written around that time ... he was of the opinion that only adults were disturbed by the goings on in fairy tales. Bruno Bettelheim, a noted specialist in child psychology, who died in 1990, was also very much against the cleaning up of fairy tales ... he felt that the original versions were far better for children, with their clear-cut punishments for the evil and rewards for heroes and heroines (interestingly, Disney's "Snow White" has, since its original release, been credited with consistently given young children nightmares ... the trigger is the vagueness of the fate of the queen; because she's not shown going SPLAT at the bottom of the cliff and nobody ever mentions/acknowledges her fate in the film, kiddies fear she'll come back).

My personal opinion is that Leacock and Bettelheim were right. My siblings and I were never afraid of the dark or thought there were monsters under the bed/in the closet/wherever, and I think that's a result of having our fears taken care of with our bedtime stories.

P.S. Another good source of REAL fairy tales is Jim Henson's "Storyteller" series ... all nine episodes are available on DVD, so you can likely find it at the library or at a rental place (bonus for Babylon 5 fans ... a fleeting nekkid Jason Carter (Marcus Cole) appearance in the "Hans My Hedgehog" episode ***grin***).

[shemhazai.livejournal.com]

Anderson's "The Little mermaid" and "The Snow Queen" were two of my favorites! I loved the story of Gerda going off into the winter snow to rescue Kay, aided by the Robber Maid...that bandit was my favorite character. (and you can't tell me there wasn't a little somethin' between those two gals. ;)

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

It was only a matter of time before it happened here ... fairy tale slash! :D

you got it, bay-bee!

[shemhazai.livejournal.com]

When it comes to erotica, I've always loved fairy tales the best. Snow White and the Seven Dwarves offeredendless possibilities. So do any stories out of the Arabian nights.

Re: you got it, bay-bee!

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

You're putting me in the mood to reread my copy of Erotic Fairy Tales. :-)

Re: you got it, bay-bee!

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I think I've heard of/seen this book. Kind of reminds me of the sexualized "Dracula" I have on loan rounds. Were you one of the ones who read it?

Re: you got it, bay-bee!

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

Yes, your Dracula is here and I need to get back to it and finish :p ... keep getting sidetracked by Kage Baker and assorted other library holds that suddenly show up, sewing, knitting, etc., etc.

Re: you got it, bay-bee!

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I empathise with the getting sidetracked! I do hope you're enjoying it ;)

Re: you got it, bay-bee!

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

To be honest, it gives me the giggles. Which doesn't make it any less fascinating. :-)

[tommdroid.livejournal.com]

I recognice myself, and I agree with everything written above! And I think that is why I was struck with awe the first time I held a Modesty Blaise comic in my hands. It's abit ironic that Willie Garvin calls her "Princess" thoguh ;)) Most of all I think I fell for the concept of Modesty and Willie loving each other in a non-sexual way. Perhaps this is why I regard my male good friends as very precious.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

Hadn't heard of Modesty Blaise either, but you're right - from the description it doesn't sound like she fits the princess stereotype!

And the idea of men and women as equals - one of the reasons I enjoyed the X-Files!

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

Oh, you MUST read Modesty Blaise ... if you can't get your hands on the comics, then go for the novels (same author as the comics: Peter O'Donnell). Volume one is, of course, titled "Modesty Blaise" (and gets you set up with all the character history ... after that one, reading order doesn't matter too much).

I found a page a while back that had Peter O'Donnell's story of how he came up with the character ... lemme just use the magic of Internet time lapse to see if I can find it again ...

HAH!!! Here it is: Girl Walking: the Real Modesty Blaise. Even if you don't know the character, this is a tale worth reading.

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

Ah, but Willie calls Modesty "Princess" for the right reasons ... when he says it, it's a title of respect and has nothing to do with castles and gowns. :-)

Princesses and Peter Pan

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, Allison! It's Heather! Summer is coming on, which means I now have a little time at work to catch up w/your journal. I'd like to HEARTILY recommend Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" trilogy, which you'll find in the "young readers" section. The first book is "The Golden Compass", and the main character, Lyra, is one girl who DOES stuff. I won't say anything else, and don't even bother to read the back -- just dive right in. I know you'll love it!

Re: Princesses and Peter Pan

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

You know, the title sounds awfully familiar. I fence with a teenage girl who reads a lot of fantasy, maybe that's where I saw it.

I see a bodacious library trip in my future ;)

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

Did some inspired e-digging ... here's a link to the text of the Leacock piece on "cleaning up" fairy tales that I mentioned in one of my comments.

Softening the Stories for the Children, published in 1938.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I think we had a discussion similar to this awhile back, re: Snippy the Gator. Kids love the gore, but the parents think it's bad for them :P

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

Yep ... the gutting of fairy tales (and other classic kidstuff) is one of my pet peeves. I'm always astonished at the number of adults who have selective amnesia/false memory syndrome when it comes to remembering what they liked as kids ... makes one wonder what other massive brain gaps they suffer from. :P

Interesting...

[shemhazai.livejournal.com]

I was obsessed with Peter Pan when I was four. I left my window open all winter in the hopes that he'd show up. I apparently dictated a three page typed letter to him as well (though I have no memory of this.)

My favorite stories as a kid were ones about children who ran away to live in the woods/an island/the arctic tundra. I didn't hearken to fairy tales so much. Although, my favorite fairy tale is one I've never found in a book after the first time I read it...it's about a girl who's given the choice of living the first half of her live in misery and her second half in joy, or vice versa. She chooses the latter, and the rest of the fairy tale is about how her life turns out.

Re: Interesting...

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

Your favourite vaguely rings a bell, but I can't place it. Have you tried looking for it in a thematic index of fairy tales?