had to say something (rant)

[anotheranon]

tommdroid has linked to it, and respect_otters doesn't know what to say, and I don't really either, but I just felt like I had to post something about the tortured Iraqi prisoners.

Maybe I'm still a Pollyanna at heart because I didn't really want to believe that any of our servicemen and women were capable of this, but then I found the pictures and looked (not safe for work, or small children, or anyone else, really). I fervently hope these are Photoshopped and while I sure as hell don't want to go back and look for telltale pixelation, I don't think they are :(

And yeah, I've read the references to the Stanford Prison Experiment and other apologia for the powerful exploiting that power, and I realize there's a valid argument to be made that the leadership is partly to blame....but I still have real problems realizing there are people in the world that not only delight in humiliating others, but feel the need to photograph it too. It's just one of those things that doesn't "square" with me, what can make an ordinary person do something like this and want to record it for posterity.

My guess, from my fairly naive position back here at the homefront: Wars are not pretty. In addition to the standard carnage, death, destruction, etc. there are going to be situations like this where the powerful exploit and abuse the weak because being in a warzone is a fucked up situation for even the best trained people. That's why I maintain that the decision to go to war should not be taken lightly, or with poor/false intelligence, or sold as something that it isn't (in this case, a cakewalk). To start this kind of shit you have to have a very fucking good reason.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, except that I'm disgusted that this isn't a bigger story and I'm embarrassed for my species that the mercenaries involved probably won't see justice - they aren't technically under anybody's jurisdiction, so the military can't touch them.

That is all.

Comments

[hadesgirl.livejournal.com]

I don't have the ***** to look at the pictures. I'm horrified by this - rationally, as you do, I know it happens. But here in America we have this delusion that we are the "good guys" right? Fighting for freedom, our noble warriors giving their lives for the greater good, right? It's always such an awful slap of reality to find there are a lot of sick people in positions of authority to participate in/allow this kind of thing, or even scarier, that it has been condoned in the first place by the **powers that be**. It's beyond words to think of those who, as you say, delight in humiliation, pain and torture being in such positions in the military. It blows the credibility of our country as a beneficient protector right out of the water (if we still had that credibility - I don't know).

I almost clicked on the link to look at these pictures but decided not to. I can't stand to see things like that. To this day I've only seen about 3 seconds of the tragic Rodney King beating, and none of the beating of Reginald Denny when he got pulled out of his truck and beaten half dead at the intersection of Florence and Normandy in south central LA during the resulting riots. Violence makes me physically ill, but I hope this prisoner thing gets so much publicity that heads roll. It's reprehensible.

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

Yes, publicity and action. And not just publicity on this side of the ocean. If the U.S. military truly wants the trust of the Iraqi people, then it needs to fully prosecute and punish those involved and publicize those actions in Iraq. Making every one of those subhumans (and anybody who gets pleasure from the humiliation of others is subhuman in my book) get down on their knees in front of each prisoners and give a genuine and individual apology would be ideal ... especially if it were done in a large stadium in Baghdad, with as many citizens as possible as witnesses. Followed by a tour of the other towns (and no memorizing and parroting the same apology either ... gotta be a new and sincere one each time). 'twould be far more effective than anything a military investigation will recommend.

I'm not saying this from a position of national righteousness. In 1992 some Canadian peacekeepers in Somalia beat a local man to death ... one of the people they were supposed to be protecting. The Canadian public was, naturally, horrified. There was a massive, and very public investigation and courts-martial (yes, there were military personnel who tried for a coverup ... as a result of this, our military got some housecleaning as well). Things like this need to made as public as possible ... not only so that Joe Ordinary knows what is being perpetrated in his name, but so that the negative public reaction reaches every potential idiot in the military ... the message that "this is NOT acceptable under ANY circumstances." We give our soldiers orders, guns and the control of even bigger and more powerful weapons ... it's up to us to make sure that they know how to use all three properly, which includes judgment and morality as well as the operating manual. IMHO, o' course.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what will satisfy the Iraqi people - the sexual humiliation is probably worse than death in the Muslim mind, and I'm not sure all the court martialing in the world will be enough :(

The biggest PR/punishment problem is the mercenaries (pardon, "security contractors" - they might be working with U.S. troops, they might even be American, but the way I understand it they don't answer to anyone except their contracting companies, so the military has no jurisdiction :( Firing is far, far too good for anyone who participated in the torture, but I wonder if they'll even see that?

Link stolen from Daily Kos re: mercenaries (http://www.20six.co.uk/weblogEntry/x8ww81cjf0fa)

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

I agree that nothing could ever satisfy the Iraqi people as being "justice", apart from turning the personnel involved over to be tried by Iraqi law. Or reversing the prisoner/guard situation and letting their former victims host them to equal time with the same treatment). But publicly taking responsibility would mark the U.S. as being different from the old regime ... to keep things quiet will make 'em look the same.

And, sadly, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the contracting companies to behave ethically ... according to The Natashas (and other sources), they prefer firing ethical employees to firing corrupt ones.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

What I think may be even more horrifying is that the great majority of these soldiers probably went in as the good guys - it's the position of unchecked authority that made them into these monsters. Sadly, this is going to make the lives of the military who ARE abiding by the Geneva Convention even more difficult because these few have just destroyed any goodwill the American troops might have enjoyed :(

I totally understand why you don't want to look at the pictures. I happened across them in some comments at Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com) and looked because no matter how many articles about the photos I read, I still wanted to make up my own mind. It's bad. No prisoner should be humiliated like this :(

[timcharmorbien.livejournal.com]

I was in the military for over 8 years, and while I sincerely believe most soldiers I knew would not have done anything like this, the sad truth is I also knew a few people - - well, let's just say if I saw their names listed among the offenders, I wouldn't be shocked.

One of the first things I was taught was that while I was obliged to follow lawfull orders, I was also equally obliged to DISOBEY unlawfull orders. Even if the accused solders were encouraged by their superiors to help 'break' the prisoners, they should have known that this was unlawfull behavior - - a sense of common decency alone should have clued them in - - and should not have participated in it. There is no excuse or justification, and whether or not there is any jailtime, they should be dishonorably discharged and banned from any kind of law enforcement! I'd really like to know if any of the personnel tried to report this to their superiors before someone finally sent these pictures to a higher authority.

The only positive note is that the military had already started an investigation last month based on some of these pictures and complaints by unnamed personnel, though they didn't release the details. And I have no doubt that the higher ranking officers supposedly in charge of the prison have seen the end of their military careers, and this is only proper; even if they didn't know what was going on, which is highly dubious, the fact it was allowed to happen points to incompetance at the least. What really burns me is that the 'civilian' interogators who were likely a considerable influence on what happened there are not subject to military justice and probably will find a way to wiggle out of this unless enough people express their outrage.

Look closely at this, people; the behavior of the subordinates is symptomatic of the attitude of their leaders. We are still holding people, including US citezens, without charges, without legal representation or any contact with the outside world, and we still have a president who eagerly, proudly, rushed us into war under false pretenses. Our soldiers have inadequate supplies (including drinking water), not enough flak jackets to go around and unarmored vehicles; and civilian "contractors" - who are not answerable to anyone but their corporate sponsors - calling the shots. Sounds like a pretty fucked up way to run a war to me, even if we had gone to war for the right reasons - - whatever those are.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

See, I'm always reluctant to make judgments about the military or police because that kind of life in combat is something I have no experience with. Seeing your comments above that soldiers are obliged to disobey unlawful orders, it's refreshing to know they can't fall back on the "just following orders" excuse. Still, about the leadership - I have to wonder like you where they were in all of this! Did they encourage it, or turn a blind eye, or were so genuinely laissez-faire that they didn't know? And if the latter - how could they not know what was going on?

I have long suspected that there are a minority of people who do join the armed forces or police because of the power trip it affords them - what you say above eerily confirms my suspicions. I hope it is a tiny minority, and that they don't ruin/endanger the job for everyone else who is trying to do the right thing.

[jlsjlsjls.livejournal.com]

If it's any comfort, the law enforcement program at my former college job did its very best to screen applicants and also had a high washout rate in an attempt to keep the power trip people out of the profession. I know the Canadian military does the same thing (with a history of being picky about recruits even when they're desperate for them). Even so, there's no such thing as a perfect system and the occasional one slips through. I'm just glad to know that they DO try.

[psquelly.livejournal.com]

I agree.

I think that unfortunately there are people who take those jobs because they enjoy those things. It's sick, it's wrong and the things that could be done to stop it aren't going to happen.

Openness and honesty and the American military just ain't good friends. And with George W in charge - whew boy!

[tommdroid.livejournal.com]

war is seldom pretty, at least the picture of war we Swedes get from media is seldom pretty. we have not been to war for several hundred of years so we wouldn't know, except for a few Swedish UN soldiers who went to Kongo in the 60s and to Serbia/Bosnia in the 90s.

no one is shocked as we know the US soldiers are The Devils, we have known that since Vietnam. the news the other night was baffling tough, UK (!!) soldiers had tortured and photographed an Iragi teenager for steeling, he was not even a prisoner of war. as I said: baffling! the media's picture of UK soldiers is the good Gentleman having afternoon tea even when the bombs are passing over his head.

media is roaring...perhaps their conclusion will be the US soldiers having a bad influence on the good natured UK soldiers, anything is probably possible. if I did not find all this so horrible I would probably have my tongue in my cheek.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

I must say in my country's defense - not ALL U.S. soldiers are devils! Though timcharmorbien may have a point about the military naturally attracting people with a violent bent, I still think the bigger problem is putting good people into a bad situation - like Vietnam and the current Iraq war. AFAIK, the troops were never trained to deal with guerrilla warfare or occupation, and the stresses of the warzone + the poor leadership/poorly thought out invasion have done their part to create this mess.

I wish our media were roaring harder on this - the more liberal political blogs and online magazines are making a fuss, but I'm not seeing any outrage in the mainstream media. But then, I gave up on the mainstream media awhile ago :/