on men and women fencing
Oct. 28th, 2010 09:04 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
anotheranon...and the discussion over at Fencing.net re: transsexuals and athletics:
For those unwilling to plow through the 25+(!) pages of commentary, I gather that a trans woman won one of the veteran women's epee events at the latest North American Cup, and some competitors feel this is very unfair. I dreaded where the commentary would go but apart from a few statements made more out of ignorance than transphobia, it's a fairly moderate conversation overall.
Most of the commenters seem to be working on 3 assumptions:
1) men and women fence differently,
2) the men's style is inherently better/more successful in competition (I don't see any comments from men worried about potentially fencing a trans man), so
3) a woman who used to be a man has an unfair advantage (even after surgery/hormone therapy) over women.
While I can see 1, I'm struggling with 2, and so don't agree with 3, and I'm reluctant to comment over at the forums as I'm a relative noob/small fish in the big pond of competitive fencing so I fear my speculations would get me roasted alive. But if you'll indulge my thinking aloud here:
In my limited competitive experience, men and women DO tend to fence differently, men tending to be more aggressive and comfortable with infighting and women more tentative and defensive. Having said that, there is wide variety within genders - I've fenced tentative guys who take forever to attack and aggressive girls who will leave welts :P
While I concede that men's superior muscle mass and speed confers advantages in some sports, I'm not sold that it's the ultimate indicator of success in fencing because of the profound mental component. Besides, if I've learned nothing else it's that anyone, young or old, male or female, new or veteran, has the potential to pull out some awesome on the strip - the sword really is a great equalizer.
Still, I know a lot of women who really don't like to compete mixed tournaments because of this, and I've been one of them time to time (teenage boy bravado can translate to hitting too hard and other unpleasantries). I sometimes wonder if a circulating "guys are better fencers" meme may psych out some women before they even have a chance to try?
A better argument of unfairness is made that women have only been able to compete nationally in epee and saber for the past ~20/30 years, and therefore a veteran-age (40+) trans woman potentially has the huge advantage of years competing as a man before transitioning that her female peers lack. And I suppose that's true, but so does any fencer over ~30 who's been fencing since high school or earlier compared to someone of the same age who picked it up as an adult [raises hand].
So, my own conclusions, with the disclaimer that things may be different at the elite level and without extrapolating my own experience to anyone else: I don't really see the point in having the gender divisions anyway. If men and women do fence differently, well, doesn't it make one a better fencer to fence everyone available? (The age divisions still make sense to me, as everyone tends to lose reflexes/speed with age).
If there are still going to be men's and women's events, trans people should fence with the gender they chose to be. Any advantages/disadvantages will be evened out by other factors (age, fitness, training, smarts), and I suspect there are so few trans people competing in elite sports that any skewing of bell curves and the like will be negligible.
Opinions heartily welcomed, and if I've been insensitive to the trans community in any way, please let me know where my language or context has failed and I'll attempt to correct it.
For those unwilling to plow through the 25+(!) pages of commentary, I gather that a trans woman won one of the veteran women's epee events at the latest North American Cup, and some competitors feel this is very unfair. I dreaded where the commentary would go but apart from a few statements made more out of ignorance than transphobia, it's a fairly moderate conversation overall.
Most of the commenters seem to be working on 3 assumptions:
1) men and women fence differently,
2) the men's style is inherently better/more successful in competition (I don't see any comments from men worried about potentially fencing a trans man), so
3) a woman who used to be a man has an unfair advantage (even after surgery/hormone therapy) over women.
While I can see 1, I'm struggling with 2, and so don't agree with 3, and I'm reluctant to comment over at the forums as I'm a relative noob/small fish in the big pond of competitive fencing so I fear my speculations would get me roasted alive. But if you'll indulge my thinking aloud here:
In my limited competitive experience, men and women DO tend to fence differently, men tending to be more aggressive and comfortable with infighting and women more tentative and defensive. Having said that, there is wide variety within genders - I've fenced tentative guys who take forever to attack and aggressive girls who will leave welts :P
While I concede that men's superior muscle mass and speed confers advantages in some sports, I'm not sold that it's the ultimate indicator of success in fencing because of the profound mental component. Besides, if I've learned nothing else it's that anyone, young or old, male or female, new or veteran, has the potential to pull out some awesome on the strip - the sword really is a great equalizer.
Still, I know a lot of women who really don't like to compete mixed tournaments because of this, and I've been one of them time to time (teenage boy bravado can translate to hitting too hard and other unpleasantries). I sometimes wonder if a circulating "guys are better fencers" meme may psych out some women before they even have a chance to try?
A better argument of unfairness is made that women have only been able to compete nationally in epee and saber for the past ~20/30 years, and therefore a veteran-age (40+) trans woman potentially has the huge advantage of years competing as a man before transitioning that her female peers lack. And I suppose that's true, but so does any fencer over ~30 who's been fencing since high school or earlier compared to someone of the same age who picked it up as an adult [raises hand].
So, my own conclusions, with the disclaimer that things may be different at the elite level and without extrapolating my own experience to anyone else: I don't really see the point in having the gender divisions anyway. If men and women do fence differently, well, doesn't it make one a better fencer to fence everyone available? (The age divisions still make sense to me, as everyone tends to lose reflexes/speed with age).
If there are still going to be men's and women's events, trans people should fence with the gender they chose to be. Any advantages/disadvantages will be evened out by other factors (age, fitness, training, smarts), and I suspect there are so few trans people competing in elite sports that any skewing of bell curves and the like will be negligible.
Opinions heartily welcomed, and if I've been insensitive to the trans community in any way, please let me know where my language or context has failed and I'll attempt to correct it.
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no subject
Date: 2010-11-02 01:13 am (UTC)That's what I'm thinking, sort of.
Just to play devil's advocate to my own post, I suppose if the assumption that men and women compete differently is correct AND the current system of national-level tournaments being divided by gender remains the norm, it would make sense to compete only against opponents of the type you're going to see in those national competitions in order to get higher scores.
But winning isn't the point for me, so...
it's really a wartime survival skill
Not exactly - modern swordplay came out of various dueling weapons, which were more for street fighting. But, your statement about not being picky about who you're fighting with still holds :P
no subject
Date: 2010-11-02 02:17 am (UTC)And I know you're in it for the gaining of the skills, with competition being a means of measuring those gains ... the most admirable reason there is for tackling any activity. :-)